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Understanding the World of Cryptocurrency Investing with Kim Snider

In this episode, we're talking with Kim Snider. For all of you in the WealthFit Nation that are excited, that are interested or maybe skeptical of cryptocurrency, you're going to love this show. We talked about crypto.


I want to give you a heads up on cryptocurrency. On this particular episode, we don't get into it until about the middle of the show because I thought what was interesting and fascinating about Kim is that she had been through a successful IPO of a company. It wasn't her company. However, she was invested in the company and so she made a lot of money very early on and she lost a lot of that money. I unpacked a little bit of that story here that drove her to study investing, which I find always fascinating.

Usually, there's a turning point in people's lives that allows them or focuses them in on something that leads them to success later. We talked about that and we talked about how in cryptocurrency, you can get VC-type returns without being an accredited investor.

If you don't know what that means, I definitely want you to pay extra close attention. It's how to get above-average returns without having access to certain types of investments.

We also talk about being in the right place at the right time. I know you may have heard that before, but how do you engineer that? How do you benefit from that? We talked a little bit about that as well along with something at the very end where we discussed fear-based personality and greed-based personality. On the surface, that sounds like a negative connotation, but Kim's proposition to us or what Kim believes is that we are driven. We’re either one or the other and certain advice works for certain personality types. That was something interesting that I thought about coming from an investment mindset or investment style.

If you want to get into crypto, let's dive in...

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Dustin
You retired, living the dream and having fun with the ponies but crypto comes along and brings you out of retirement. The big question is why?
Kim
It goes back to where we started. As a result of my experiences, I became sensitive to when I feel like people are making money in someone else's expense. It incenses me and that was how I got into crypto. I'll tell you the backstory. What happened was I was coming home from the movies one day with a friend of mine and she casually mentioned to me that she had inherited $300,000 worth of crypto assets. This is a big deal because she's in her 60s. She's behind on her retirement savings and she asked me if I have any opinions about what she should do with it. My initial knee-jerk response was, “Sell that. Are you kidding me? Cash it out. Give them $300,000.” I didn't say that. At least somewhere in the back of my mind, I thought to myself, “You don't know anything about this. You can't give advice on something you don't understand.” I just punted and let it pass. She didn't bring it up for a pretty long time but the next time she did, it was worth $600,000, which definitely got my attention. You don't get doubled in the stock market like that. I'm like, “I better see what is up with this.” The first thing I did is I started to research it so that I could have an intelligent conversation with her so that I could advise her as a friend, “Is this a scam?” That's where your brain goes to begin with, at least that's where mine went. A lot of people do. 
Once I satisfied myself that it wasn't a scam, I started to dig into it a little bit. This is interesting stuff. It’s the first time maybe since public stocks were created that we've had something monumentally, potentially Earth-shifting in the world of finance. I started looking at it trying to understand what the assets were and how they were valued and how they may fit into a portfolio. Meanwhile, it's still going up. She says to me, “Now it's worth $1.2 million,” but along the way as I'm researching, what I'm seeing out there is mortifying and horrifying. There are people who are giving advice. I call them crypto kitties who have quadrupled their little sister’s lunch money and suddenly, that qualifies them as a genius. There are people out there that their only intention was to make money. It’s because that's what happens during these bubble periods when it gets frothy. Some of them may have had good intentions, but the advice was still scary. At one point she says to me, “I don't get this. All you do is complain about how scammy and awful the advice is and this is what you did. This is what you were supposedly so good at. Why wouldn't you help people?” I thought, “She's absolutely right. I either need to put up or shut up.” The very next day, I got the same crypto domain and that's how I started.
Dustin
I'm always fascinated by origin stories and they continually surprise me. For some of us here at the WealthFit Nation, we've heard about crypto. We've gone through the whole media thing in recent times, but I want to take it back a step. I want you to give folks a foundation about crypto and blockchain. Can you start off defining the terms and giving us a foundation?
Kim
Here's how I explain it to friends and family. The easiest way to understand it isn't with one of those old standardized test questions we used to. It's this. Internet is to blockchain as email is to Bitcoin. Here's what I mean by that. Back in the early to mid ‘90s, internet was this new obscure technology that no one knew what to do with and no one understood except for a few geeky computer scientists. That allowed us for the very first time to transfer data from point-to-point, person-to-person, peer-to-peer in a decentralized way. Meaning without relying on some third party like DHL or the phone company or the post office or FedEx or whomever to move that data. It wasn't until AOL started sending out CDs via snail mail and getting everybody online and introducing them to email, which had been around for years. They suddenly put a pretty gooey wrapper around it and sent millions of CDs so that all of your friends now also had the ability to email. That’s the thing that opened the door to widespread mass adoption. It became a cultural thing. There's the movie, You've Got Mail. 
Blockchain is the new technology, just like the internet. The internet is just all it was. It was software protocols that moved packets of data across this network. The blockchain is similar. It's software, it's protocols. Only this time, what we were able to do with blockchain is move value peer-to-peer across the globe in the blink of an eye in a decentralized way without relying on a third party. Only in this case, those third parties would be banks and central governments. Bitcoin is the equivalent of AOL and email. Who knows what it might eventually all be used for? In the same way that we couldn't possibly imagine in ‘98, ‘99 what it would look like now. We all understood email and Bitcoin is that same kind of first use case that everyone can get their brain around. What it allows us to do is literally transfer money across the globe in the blink of an eye. From me to you without anybody being able to say that we have the right, we can or can't do that. That is this ability to transfer value. It’s monumental and new and potentially disruptive as the internet was back in its day.
Dustin
I appreciate the definition. For my own clarity, there's blockchain which is as the internet was at the beginning and Bitcoin as to the email. Not every blockchain has some kind of coin, correct?
Kim
Correct. If it doesn't have a token associated with it, then it is not a cryptocurrency. You are right. A blockchain is just a distributed ledger. It's a big database that instead of being controlled by one central party, usually a company, it’s distributed. It's created and maintained by hundreds of thousands in the case of Bitcoin and people across the internet. When we talk about cryptocurrency, then there's definitely a token associated with it.
Dustin
Is all cryptocurrency backed by a blockchain?
Kim
Yes, blockchain is the technology underlying all cryptocurrencies but all blockchains are not cryptocurrencies and I think that's what you're driving at.
Dustin
I want to clarify token. I know we've been throwing some terms around token and coin. Are these the same things or is there a differentiator here?
Kim
They are. They are used interchangeably.
Dustin
Now that we have a foundation, there's Bitcoin, there's Ethereum and I'm sure you can tell me all the other ones that exist out there. How do I get into this world if I have some interest in this?
Kim
It's a little bit like getting into the world of stocks or bonds. What I mean by that is it depends on what your objectives are. Like stocks, you could just go out and open a brokerage account and put some money to that brokerage account and start buying. The thing that we know is that without a sound strategy, you're probably going to lose all of that money. There may be periods like the internet bubble where everybody thinks they're a genius but overtime, they all give that money back. If that's all you want to do, you want to take $50 and play around to see what it is. That's one thing. Most people will tell you that cryptocurrency is too risky for the average investor. They have that absolutely wrong and backward. The risk is in not investing in cryptocurrency. The reason I say that is threefold. First and foremost, it's an uncorrelated asset to the other things that you should be holding, including your real estate, your stocks, your bonds, etc. We know that diversification with non-correlated assets decreases portfolio risk and not increases it. Two, it's still a very short data set because it's only been around for about ten years. We believe, based on what we've seen and expect, that it will act as a hedge against hyperinflation and financial crisis. That's another way that it reduces risk. I talk about Bitcoin because I'm what they call a Bitcoin maximalist.
I believe for the moment that you should limit your investments to Bitcoin, maybe a little Ethereum but Bitcoin primarily. Bitcoin has this massive upside potential. The return over the last ten years is crazy. It's over 13,000%. When it came out in 2008, it was at $0.5. Even at $6,700, that's a 13,000% return. This is very important, Dustin. There is absolutely no guarantee that that will ever happen again. I can make you a very plausible case for becoming very big numbers. This might be what you were asking previously, but maybe we didn't have the background to understand. Just imagine back in 1993, if someone created an investment that was traded on an exchange similar to a stock but not in AOL or Cisco or the companies that were built around the internet, but that you could invest in the internet. The value of that investment would go up on the basis of network traffic, widespread, mainstream use and adoption. That investment now would be worth a number that we can't even fathom. You couldn't imagine it then. It seemed crazy then. That's the opportunity in investing in cryptocurrency now. If it succeeds, it's the equivalent of being able to invest in the internet in 1993. This whole new protocol, which some people call Internet 3.0.
In my free training, that is a massive number from here with no guarantees that it will happen. You've got 76 million Baby Boomers, which probably aren't who we're talking about on this show. Think of that, 76 million Baby Boomers who need to retire and don't have enough money to do it. We have another 100 million Millennials coming after them who are saddled with college debt and all these issues that are not saving enough for retirement who want to. I view Bitcoin as a potentially once in a lifetime opportunity to jump the chasm as it were, to make a massive difference with venture capital type returns that are available to the average Joe without being an accredited investor like this. That's the thing that's so interesting and exciting to me. It's just this once in a lifetime opportunity that people are rightfully slow to adopt. If they don't handle it right, we'll have the opposite of its potential impact. Meaning that they will lose money on it rather than make money on it in the exact same way that most people lose money on a stock market that goes up on average of 8% a year. To me, that was what was so exciting about it and why you have to be in it.
Dustin
I'm intrigued by your definition there. That's a new one to me, the Bitcoin maximalist. I'm curious as to why Bitcoin and Ethereum seemed to be the go-tos, if I've understood you correctly and why maybe the others aren't necessarily the ones that you like?
Kim
I believe you should stay away from the ICOs. We all are familiar with the IPO, Initial Public Offering. ICO stands for Initial Coin Offering. They're also known as altcoins. That's what we're talking about. Anything other than Bitcoin is known as an altcoin. There are three reasons why you should stay away from all of these altcoins for the foreseeable future. Those three things are one, regulatory risk, two, wrong wave and three, the velocity problem. The regulatory risk is that it seems pretty clear to me and many people who come from a traditional financial background that all of those altcoins were unregistered securities. Still are, most of them. It’s still very unclear how the SEC is going to deal with that but they will deal with it. Until there is clarity on that, why would you take that regulatory risk when Bitcoin doesn't have that risk? They've already come out and said very clearly that Bitcoin isn't a security and never was. It's the only one that doesn't carry that regulatory risk. They very well could act retroactively coming from an SEC registered investment advisor. You do not want to tangle with the SEC. That's the first thing, the most obvious thing. The second one is what I call wrong wave. What I mean by wrong wave, I'm referring to a book, which I highly recommend that Steve Case, the Founder of AOL wrote called The Third Wave where he lays out a framework for thinking about the internet and the stages that it went through.
The first wave, which is where we clearly are in the blockchain and cryptocurrency space is where we were building out the infrastructure. We were building out things like the fiber underneath the ocean, email protocols, FTP and all of that stuff. The people who tried to create second wave companies, being the real-world applications built on top of the internet, things like Facebook and all the things you have now, like Amazon. What happened was the poster children for the dot-com bust like Pets.com, now it’s Chewy.com. It was built the same with a social media site that was too early. You are trying to build a decentralized Uber on top of an infrastructure that hasn't even been built yet. Someday, that may work but you're just way too early. Most of those things I look at and I’m like, “Good idea, but wrong wave.” Then the third thing is geeky. I won't go into it too much but it's something known as the velocity problem. It comes from the way that monetary assets are valued. There's a formula for that. That formula says that a monetary asset, the more successful it becomes, the more velocity it has. It will push that price closer and closer to zero. Most people are ignoring it in these ICOs that if their most fervent wishes come true and they are wildly successful, that will force the price to zero and Bitcoin doesn't suffer from that problem. There's no reason when you can get more than sufficient return out of Bitcoins, so stick with that.
Dustin
Kim, my understanding is you have described Bitcoin in a way that's new to me and the way that I read it was as a hedge against inflation and financial crisis. I loved how you put this in. I want you to explain this, that crypto is possibly better than gold. In those terms, it's a lot different because the media portrayed it as get in now and it's just going to keep going and we've experienced it. I like how you softened it and you're presenting an entirely different viewpoint as a hedge against inflation and crisis that may come in the future. Can you unpack that a little bit for us?
Kim
I'm in the investment and this is exactly as you said, that it's a better gold than gold. What a lot of people think mistakenly about Bitcoin is that it's like digital cash. The idea is that we would be able to buy Starbucks and pizza with it. That's not the idea at all. Something else may solve for that payment rail but to the velocity problem, if they do that, it won't be a good investment anymore than you would invest in the dollar. What we hope is that it’s stable, not volatile. Volatility is where we make our money. That's going to be a different coin that solves that problem. The problem that Bitcoin solves is it's a better gold than gold. Meaning it's a store of value. That's its job. That's its use. The main reason that it's a better gold than gold is for one, it's the most portable because gold is obviously not very portable. It has all the same characteristics as gold. Except that, it's very portable. I can put a couple million dollars on a little USB drive and carry it cross an international border with me or in my head even, which I certainly can't do with gold. I heard someone say, “If we were inventing gold or inventing money now, knowing that we might be colonizing Mars in 40 years, we wouldn't invent gold.” It is a digital form of gold. The other thing that makes it interesting in terms of store value is it has built into it as does gold, what's known as predetermined scarcity.
Gold is dirty. It's expensive to mine. It's very rare. We produce about 1% of the world's gold supply each year in mining and that rarely changes. It goes up or down. What's interesting about bitcoin is that by design, there can only ever be 21 million Bitcoin in existence. That's cast in stone. It's in the code. There can never be anything more than that. That's this predetermined scarcity. I told you that there are arguments for Bitcoin getting to a very big number. No guarantees. If all you do is imagine that Bitcoin is moderately successful at supplanting gold as a store of value and replacing some of the offshore accounts as well, we've got about an $8 trillion above ground gold supply. If you take that $8 trillion and divide that by the 21 million Bitcoin, which is all there can ever be, that gets you to a number of $380,000 per Bitcoin. We're at $6,700 right now. You don't need all of that. All you need is a fraction of that for it to be a lot higher than it is now. That's the bet. 
Those numbers are staggering. They almost make you laugh when you say them or apologize for them when you say them. They seem so crazy but at the same time, I always remind myself, “If I could have invested in the internet, what would that investment look like now?” It would be something similar from zero to some crazy number. It's not impossible, it's also not certain. That's what makes this such an interesting investment. If people get greedy and they invest too much, that’s as bad as not investing at all. It's a very fine line that you have to walk, which is no different than all investments with position sizing is very important. You asked me originally, “How does someone get in?” This stuff is not easy. Investing is hard. You need to have a strategy. You need to understand what you're doing and it needs to be a strategy that's designed to make you money, not the person selling the strategy. Those are all key factors but that's why you should be in. It also reduces risk in these other ways. It’s like gravy to me.
Dustin
We definitely appreciate that commentary about sitting across from the table whose job it is to sell you so that they could monetize. That's definitely in alignment with what we talk about here at WealthFit. It's not that that's necessarily a bad thing. It's just a question. It takes that extra second or longer to see, “Is this more of a do-it-yourself thing? Is this something that you can control a little bit more and keep more or does it make sense because you've got so many different investments?” You can't be the expert in every single thing. With that said, I want to move us into WealthFit round, which is rapid fire. I'd like to know what is your most worthwhile investment?
Kim
I'm mostly self-educated and so that’s education and books and learning by far.
Dustin
This would maybe be a little tricky for you, Kim, because you've definitely been an open book. You had a big IPO in your life and then it was dwindled down to nothing. Other than that investment, I want to know about another investment that you'd rather not talk about? Maybe a path that you went down so that people can learn and benefit from it.
Kim
Trying to find my way in the world of investing after that, I spent a number of years as an options trader. I was an options trader at the Chicago Board Options Exchange. I was able to eventually make money at that because I had a mentor who took me under his wing and taught me the ropes. What I learned from that is that it's a rigged game. The only reason those guys make money is because it's a rigged game. Trying to day trade for the average investor your way into profits is an absolutely certain way to lose money. The funny thing is it's so seductive. It seems like it should be so easy to do and yet I guarantee you that it's impossible.
Dustin
You are very versed in money with all the different things that you've invested in, even entrepreneurship in the mix there with the firm. What is your guilty spending splurge?
Kim
My horses. It's staggering how much money I spend on that.
Dustin
That's like reverse continuity. You buy the pony and you're not done because you’ve got to keep feeding them, right?
Kim
Absolutely and it takes a lot of them. With that said, it is a guilty pleasure. There's no question about it. On the one hand, it keeps me productive because my husband and I made a deal when we moved to Aiken, South Carolina where I live, which was that I couldn't spend any of the money we'd already made on polo. If I wanted to play polo, I had to make whatever I spent, which was very smart on his part because he knew that we'd be broke. I told you whatever a heroin addict would do, that's what a polo player will do. I laugh and say, “It keeps me productive but it also makes me happy.” My lifelong dream was to have my office in my barn and I did that. I'm sitting here, I'm looking out my window. My horses are literally six feet out outside my window. That's pretty cool.
Dustin
I definitely want to borrow your hubby there because that is a wise CFO as you call them. It’s very savvy of him. Kim, fear and self-doubt often stop people from making that first investment into crypto or starting that business or figuring out a way to change their position in life. What do you do to overcome those feelings and what would be your advice to someone that's experienced fear from moving in a different direction?
Kim
One of the things I used to teach in my investment class is that it's like being left-handed or right-handed. We tend to be either fear-based or greed-based, one of the other and we tend to marry the opposite. I am absolutely greed-based. My husband is absolutely fear-based. My answer is somewhat dependent on which one of those you are. If you're me and I suspect maybe you as well, Dustin, if you are greed-base, which by the way, that's not a bad word. It's just the way you are. You probably don't need the answer to that question because what you do naturally is take risks and you're optimistic and you just fail forward, which is what I do. The question is more interesting to people who are not like me, who have security as their number one most dominant need. 
For those people, I would say start small and trust your gut but understand that that is your nature, that you are going to have to fight against that a little bit. The other thing that helps with that a lot is starting with the end in mind and working backward. When I have people who are uncomfortable with investing because they don't want to lose money, if we start with the end goal and I could say, “This is what has to happen to get you to that goal and you aren't going to get there unless we do X, Y and Z.” That does help. I find that the person who is greed-based can just fail forward. The person who is fear-based almost has to start with a much longer-term horizon and work backward.
Dustin
You’ve been successful in a lot of different areas in your life. I’m curious if you have any secret routines or secret rituals that help you achieve success?
Kim
Yes, I do. Let me go back and I’ll re-answer the best investment I’ve ever made. The best investment I’ve ever made is a specific book. That specific book is The ONE Thing by Gary Keller. If you haven't read it, I highly recommend it. I'm naturally bent that way anyway, but I practice the TLDR on that and I'll get to the answer to this question. The TLDR on that is there’s a clarifying question in The ONE Thing, which is what is the one thing if that's the only thing you could do that would make everything else easier or unnecessary? If you can always be focused on the one thing, that is how you get maximum leverage from your time. At the end of the day, time is the most critical asset any of us have. It's not money. We can always make more money, but we can never make more time. That's been the most critical thing. That's my number one investment and my number one recommendation. In terms of my ritual, what I do is the very first thing in the morning is I sit down with a journal. I happened to use the best self-journal, but that's just me. Among other things, making sure that I focus on the things that I'm grateful for and all those other things that you'll probably hear a lot of other places, that I get clear about the one thing every single day and that is where I'm spending 80% to 90% of my effort. That is the secret to why people think I must have a staff of twenty and it's just me.
Dustin
Kim, I appreciate you being on the show. You've enlightened us and you've given us some things to think about and some action items to consider. For those that want to continue the conversation with you, maybe get a little pony action perhaps, do you share that thing on your blog or elsewhere? Also, if they want to educate themselves in the areas of cryptocurrency and what you're up to, where can folks find you?
Kim
I appreciate you asking that question. I'm not big on social media. The best place to find me is on our website. I've put together a special page for your audience, Dustin. They can find it at SaneCrypto.com/GetWealthFit. I've put together some links to my podcast, a free training that I do that talks about some of the things we did in the crypto space, but maybe a little bit more coherent or logical stream, as well as links to my Sane Crypto Mastermind, which is my program for those people who are interested in cryptocurrency, but want the guiding hand of a twenty-plus year investment advisor who don't want to figure this all out on their own.
Dustin
I appreciate those resources. I appreciate you giving us your time as the most valuable asset for all of us, no matter where we are in life. I appreciate you giving us and making the investment in the WealthFit Nation. Thanks again.
Kim
It's been my pleasure. I loved this conversation.
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